A correspondence with Dr. Barakat

Article published on 24 January 2008

logo imprimer

About a month after the publication of this article (en) on my website, containing a few comments about Dr. Aly Barakat’s report, I received a mail from the Egyptian geologist. Following this first contact ensued an interesting correspondence that I publish here, of course with Dr. Barakat’s authorization.

I will copy/paste this entire correspondence, with a few editing as it is sometimes difficult in Dr. Barakat’s texts to distinguish between his text and his quotations from the previous mail. However I give along with this edited text the original messages and documents.

2007/12/30: First mail from Dr. Barakat

Dear Lma;

First of all: Happy new year.

Mr. Vuk Bacanovic kindly provided me your email to write you. I would like to thank you for your critical reading of my report. This is important. I agree with you in some points and disagree in others. Off course, I will reply your comments, but not now because I will travel tomorrow.

But please, find here another abstract for the forthcoming paper (in preparation). I hope to read it and provide comments.

With regards
Aly Barakat

Dr. Barakat - 2007/12/30

As an attached file was the mentioned abstract:

Abstract-GAW9 - 2007/12/30

2008/01/07: My answer

Dear Sir,

let me first wish you a very happy new year, and apologize for the late
answer: I’ve been away from home these last few days.

Dear Lma; First of all: Happy new year. Mr. Vuk Bacanovic kindly provided me your email to write you. I would like to thank you for your critical reading of my report. This is important. I agree with you in some points and disagree in others. Off course, I will reply your comments, but not now because I will travel tomorrow.

It will be an honour to read your answers and comments (and to publish
them on my website if you wish it so). As I said on my website, I never
visited Visocica and the other sites, and would really appreciate some
first hand comments from a professional geologist like you who spent
some weeks there. In fact, if you wish to continue this email
conversation, I would like to ask for your opinion on a few subjects
pertaining to the local geology and the work that is going on on the
"pyramids".

But please, find here another abstract for the forthcoming paper (in preparation). I hope to read it and provide comments.

Thank you for this abstract. May I ask where the paper will be
published? And do you authorize me to share this abstract with a few
other persons?

In this abstract, you write: "The present author deny the possibility that natural processes were responsible of the pyramidal shape of the hill". I would be very interested in the facts that led you to deny this
possibility.

You also write: "The authors of the book entitled: "Visoko I Okolina Kroz Historiju" (published in 1984) refer to human activities that contributed much to the pyramidal shape of the hill and called the settlement on the top of the hill: "City Pyramid"."

Did you have access to an English translation of this book? I was able to read part of it in Bosnian (some pages were scanned and published on a Bosnian blog), but saw nothing like this. Visocica hill, or "Grad" (=city) is mentioned for instance in the chapter about the Bronze and Iron Ages (pages 29 and 30), as it has been the location of a settlement probably during the whole period. If some human interventions are mentioned, I could find nothing about a "City Pyramid" and a modifying of the hill shape. If you have a more precise reference to this, like a page number, I would appreciate the sharing.

Hoping to hear from you soon,
Best regards, Irna

Irna - 2008/01/07

2008/01/14: Dr. Barakat’s second mail

Dear Miss. Irna;

Thanks for your kind message and sorry for two things: I wrote your name in non correct way at the first message and delay your reply, the latter thing is because I was in a field trip and I just returned back.
I promised you to reply your comments concerning my report. In this concern, you are authorized to publish what you see to be suitable for publishing.

Please, find them as following:

Concerning the points that I agree with you:

Your are right concerning the photos and the references. The report must be illustrated and documented by references. The photos I left in Bosnia, but no one aware with them so they did not interested to add to the text. Concerning the references, I mentioned the Geological map of Bosnia in the text but I did set it as reference. Other references must be the three Volumes in Bosnian Language describing the prehistory of the whole region (ex Yugoslavia) and the topographic map of the region as well as this reference ((B.A. Bolt W.L. Horn G.A. Macdonald and R.F. Scott, Geological Hazards, Springer-Verlag, 1975: page 33 "in the territory of ex Yugoslavia": (The Roman colony of Scupi, was situated at the confluence of the Lepenac and Vardar Rivers. It was completely destroyed in 518 A.D. by an earthquake, which led to abandonment of the site, and a new city was built to the east of the present site by the Emperor Justinian). This is as example of the impact of tectonics on the antiquatic sites. Also, the weak point in this report unreviewing the other opinion against the project.

Concerning the disagreement between both of us:

1-If you have a look to the topographic map of the region, the contour lines of the hill can say why I do not think that natural processes may create such feature. You can see the northern side as perfect triangular shape, well oriented E-W and make 90 with the adjoin eastern side. Such feature for me is not related to natural process, but man made.

2-The western side is straight. Decomposed constructed material may be observed in the midway during your going up to the top of the hill. This feature was reported by Dr. Andretta in June 2006, but I did not see what he see at that time. We are altogether but I did not able to recognize his view. Off course, he more acute observer and more experiences than me.

3-Please, go up on the northern and eastern side of the hill, you will find the natural thin shale layer that intercalated naturally with the breccia/conglomerate rock, which made up the main mass of the hill, is removed to expose a white straight and smooth hard faces.

4-White slaps are arranged on these two faces following the general slope. You mention in your comments that they are natural, but in fact unambiguously artificial and I will send you photo of this feature.

5-Perfect shaped Rectangular books of hard conglomerate not from the area. They are found behind the hill on the plateau. These blocks are similar to that of the Great pyramid in size and shape (nearly 2.5 ton). I still think that they were transported from the eastern desert of Egypt until Bosnian geologist tell that he know the real quarry in Bosnia that they were cut from it. I ask the Visoko museum staff about these blocks they informed me that they are tombstones. I do not think so. All artificial blocks on the ground are tombstones in Bosnia?

6-Small block of cubic shape found accordantly during the excavations carried out by the organization last year. These blocks are found scattered in the area and used by recent people in building. These blocks are falling down from the sides of the hill.

7-Pavao Andelic et al, published the nice book entitled " Visoko I Okolina Kroz Historiju" (1984). They mention that the hill is natural but they refer to human activities that contributed to the shape of the hill. Also the interesting feature in this concern, their mentioning that the archaeology of the site is not studied yet, this means that no body can understand the full story and history of this hill. This was confirmed by the accident finding of artifacts on the top by military (not by archaeologists).

8- If you visit the site and observe the southern side, you will see irregularity, seems as missing part. This is related to quarrying operations of relatively recent time. Accordingly, human activities contributed to the distortion of the site like the natural processes. Please, consider in your study the human habits towards antiquities all over the world.

9-Please, have a look to the topographical map of the area. For the first glance you will find the derange system of the site indicating recent tectonics reflected in the nearly acute channels.

10-Concerning the work of researchers who say that the hill is natural, I agree with them that the main mass of the hill is natural breccia/conglomerate of Miocene in age. This is in harmony with what I say in this concern. But this natural hill is modified by man to be a pyramid. This is the differences only. If we investigate the Cap Rock in Upper Egypt it is a natural sandstone rock of Cretaceous in age, but quarrying operations by ancient Egyptians left it as a ridge like Cap. The same as the Giant Sphinx at Giza pyramids site, it is a natural limestone rock of Eocene age, modified by man to be in this form. The core of the Great Pyramid is a natural hill of Eocene Age. Suppose that the covering material of this pyramid is missing, what we find? We find natural hill. The white pyramid in China is a natural hill modified by man to be pyramid. No body say that the white pyramid more than a natural mountain shaped by man.

11- Other Bosnian geologists- (Mensur Omerbashich (2007): Bosnian “Pyramids”: Hills shaped by Romans. http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/ (en). (September 20, 2007)- sees that Romans shaped the northern side to oriented it in east-west for watching and recording the militaries campaign of the enemies (their rights) and me see this was to shape pyramid.

12- We reported human bones in a grave on the plateau with black material in a vessel. I think it represent liquid food during historical times, because I ask if this feature is known during the prehistoric time, museum specialists informed me: No. this feature appeared in definite time in Egypt. The people provided food to the died person. I can send you the reference if you interesting.

13-We found Neolithic artifact (as identified by specialists) near the same site.

14-We find a head of artificial hammer (nice artifact in my report) in the tunnel made of a hard stone chert). Actually I refer during the presentation to the photos, so I expect all of us see it. So, there was no more explanation. In this regard I have a story to be said: “I entered the tunnel four times with the team (some of them specialized in small stone tools and artifacts). I recognized large stone blocks shaped by man and inscriptions on the surface of one natural stone. In the other time, Dr. Andretta joined us. He recognized this tool (and other tiny tool) that were below our foots, but we did not recognize. This because we did not see these tools before. So, it is normal to recognize or see something that others cannot be able to see”.

15-In Sarajevo Museum inscription related to definite ancient time. Some signs (arrows) of this inscription is the same on the huge stone in the tunnel.

I think these feature are enough for me to reach the conclusion that I discuss now with you.

Now let us to consider some theoretical observations. Go to the Sarajevo Museum. In the entrance, you will find a status for a black race man from the prehistory. What this means for me? It means that it is possible to find the features that are found in Africa at Bosnia. I met during my work in Visoko the team of German expedition working on the prehistoric civilization near Visoko, I asked the director of the expedient about astronomy and the number of citizens during prehistoric time. His answer yes there are artifacts indicating that the people practiced astronomy from definite decorations on ceramics artifacts. He informed me that at least there were 1000 persons living in some sites during definite prehistoric periods. The Visoko Museum staff informed me (Miss Habeba) that some of the prehistoric settlement planed their village in the form of the Sun Disk. In my opinion, pyramids reflect astronomical features (most Egyptologists say no: Graves for kings). So, it is not far to accept that Bosnian citizens shaped the hill for astronomy (just thinking). Please, have a look for the cover of the coffin in the photograph in the book that its title send you her. The shape of the cover is similar to the “Mastaba”. Mastaba was the introduction to pyramids in Egypt, according to Egyptologists. This feature is still surviving until now in some sorts of coffins in Egypt. We received it from Old kingdom. This small feature tell me that habits of the ancient people are nearly similar all over the world.

Concerning the conference title and address:

9 th international Conference on the geology of the Arab World “GAW” on 22-27 March 2008.

The address is:

Website: <www.gaw.cu.edu.eg>;

Concerning the statement “city pyramid” [you can find on page (159) of the second column, line 19]. The translation was made by several Bosnians, from them: Miss Merima Bojic.

Finally, I hope to find what you need in my reply and I will reply any question, if I have satisfied answer. All of us are looking for solving this mysterious feature at Visoko. But before I finish, I must say I am not agree that the pyramid shaped from 12000 years or it is older than the Egyptian pyramids. I respect any view but this not mean that I agree with all views.

Thanks and best regards.
Aly

Dr. Barakat - 2008/01/14
Reply to Miss Irna - 2008/01/14

Along with the mail were the attached files:

Acceptance of GAW abstract - 2008/01/14
coffin cover - 2008/01/14
Title of the book - 2008/01/14
Extract from Andelic’s book

2008/01/21: My answer

Dear sir,

thank you very much for your answer, and the opportunity you offer me to discuss with you this Bosnian pyramids affair. As you invited me to, I
wish to make a few comments and ask a few more questions :-)

Dear Miss. Irna; Thanks for your kind message and sorry for two things: I wrote your name in non correct way at the first message and
delay your reply, the latter thing is because I was in a field trip and I just returned back. I promised you to reply your comments concerning my report. In this concern, you are authorized to publish
what you see to be suitable for publishing. Please, find it as attachment.

Thank you again for this authorization; in fact, I would like to publish
this entire correspondence, if you do not oppose, on my website, as I
think it is most important to provide the public with all the available
information.

The photos I left in Bosnia, but no one aware with them so they did not interested to add to the text.

That’s a pity, I would have dearly liked to see your report illustrated!
And thanks for the references.

If you have a look to the topographic map of the region, the contour lines of the hill can say why I do not think that natural processes may create such feature. You can see the northern side as perfect triangular shape, well oriented E-W and make 90 with the adjoin eastern side. Such feature for me is not related to natural process, but man made.

I think we can totally agree on the fact that Visocica northern side is
actually triangular, and that the eastern one is also roughly
triangular. But, without further evidence, I am doubtful when you say
that this feature "is not related to natural process". I have seen, as
I’m sure you also have, numerous strange natural features; as far as I
have seen, triangular mountain sides are not so rare in this part of
Bosnia, if generally not so perfect. Beginning with the five other hills
Mr. Osmanagic has proclaimed pyramids on the basis of their more or less triangular sides :-) (by the way, your report says nothing about these other "pyramids": I believe you saw at least Pljesevica; do you think, like Mr. Osmanagic, it is also a pyramid?)

If I do not doubt that some human interventions took place on Visocica
at various times in the past (see also below), I think that the point
where I have to disagree with you, at least without further evidence, is
the *extent* of these interventions: the entire re-shaping of a hill
this big, if, of course, not impossible, would have to be very solidly
argumented to convince me, and nothing I read or saw on the Foundation website offers any evidence.

The western side is straight. Decomposed constructed material may be observed in the midway during your going up to the top of the hill. This feature was reported by Dr. Andretta in June 2006, but I did not
see what he see at that time. We are altogether but I did not able to
recognize his view. Off course, he more acute observer and more
experiences than me.

Of course, the presence of construction material would not be very
surprising on a hill that has been populated at least since the Bronze
Age, according to Mr. Andelic’s book (you can read this article
http://irna.lautre.net/Real-archaeology-in-Visoko.html (en) about the prehistoric settlements in Visoko on my website). Pertaining to Dr. Andretta, do you know whether he intends to publish something about what he saw in Visoko, and whether he is still involved in the project?

Please, go up on the northern and eastern side of the hill, you will find the natural thin shale layer that intercalated naturally with the breccia/conglomerate rock, which made up the main mass of the hill, is removed to expose a white straight and smooth hard faces.

But if these sides of the hill are dip-slopes, as I supposed from the
informations obtained from Dr. Smailbegovic and the geologic map (see
here: http://irna.lautre.net/Geology-of-the-Bosnian-pyramids.html (en)), it
would not be surprising to find, once removed the superficial and
altered layers, the hard layer that is precisely at the top of Lasva
series stratigraphy, would it? I’m not sure I understand precisely your
meaning here, some photographs or a sketch would help much.

White slaps are arranged on these two faces following the general slope. You mention in your comments that they are natural, but in fact unambiguously artificial and I will send you photo of this feature.

Well, I would really like to receive these photos, of course. What is
more, if these slabs are unambiguously artificial, it should be easy to
demonstrate, and Mr. Osmanagic will soon be able to show some evidence, like geological discordances, tool marks, the quarry where the slabs come from and so on.

Perfect shaped Rectangular books of hard conglomerate not from the area. They are found behind the hill on the plateau. These blocks are similar to that of the Great pyramid in size and shape (nearly 2.5 ton). I still think that they were transported from the eastern desert of Egypt until Bosnian geologist tell that he know the real quarry in Bosnia that they were cut from it. I ask the Visoko museum staff about these blocks they informed me that they are tombstones. I do not think so. All artificial blocks on the ground are tombstones in Bosnia?

Well, I suppose that the archaeologists from Visoko museum know a little bit about Bosnian archaeology, and as *stecci* (the medieval tombstones in Bosnia) are something unique and an important part of the Bosnian historic wealth, I would not dismiss so easily their opinion. What is more, the book by Pavao Andelic (of which parts were translated to you, but maybe not some of the most interesting ones), "Visoko i Okolina kroz Istoriju", mentions precisely the existence of a medieval necropolis on this exact place, on the plateau "between the village Grad and the fortress". The exact sentence (p. 160) is: "Traces of a middle medieval cemetary around our agglomeration [meaning: the fortress, royal town and the surrounding villages] are found on the crest between the village Grad and the fortress [which was, as you know, on the summit of Visocica]. There can today still be seen one (damaged) stecak [Bosnian name for these tombstones], and it is known that there were more of them in former times". I can send you a scan of this page, if you wish to ask for another translation.

Pavao Andelic et al, published the nice book entitled " Visoko I Okolina Kroz Historiju" (1984). They mention that the hill is natural
but they refer to human activities that contributed to the shape of the hill. Also the interesting feature in this concern, their mentioning that the archaeology of the site is not studied yet, this means that no body can understand the full story and history of this hill. This was confirmed by the accident finding of artifacts on the top by military (not by archaeologists).

As I mentioned earlier, I have read (in Bosnian as I can read it quite
easily) large parts of this book, and I think that maybe you were given
a slightly wrong idea of its content. I could find no reference to human
activities "that contributed to the shape of the hill", except the
mention of several terraces and platforms on the slopes, particularly on
the south-east side, and on the south side of the hill below the
medieval fortress. These artificial terraces bore medieval settlements
(and it seems that some remains of these may have been destroyed, as
geologist Nadija Nukic mentions the finding of remains of hearths that
were later suppressed. But in all the parts of the book I could read
(about prehistory and Middle Ages), there is no mention of giving a
triangular shape to Visocica.

Pertaining to the expression "city pyramid", I have received a scan of
the entire chapter. The word "pyramid" is used twice: first, on page
158, where the author explains the strategic location of the fortress on
Visocica, and writes about the hill: "Seen from the Bosna valley,
Visocica, with the ruins of Visoko town, looks like a big four-sided
pyramid". Then on page 159, the sentence mentioning a long wall along
the "northern angle of the city pyramid". I must mention that the word
"grad", which means "city", is also the name of the entire hill (and of
the village on the plateau), so that the translation could also be "of
the hill pyramid". I really think that the word pyramid is used here
exclusively in a descriptive meaning, as one could use the word "tower"
or "wall" to describe a natural rock shelf for instance, and that it
absolutely cannot be used as an evidence of anything, and surely not as
evidence of a reference to a man-made pyramid.

Before I forget to mention it, a Bosnian friend answered me that about
the word "misir" (not "miser") that you say is used in Visoko to refer
to the site:
"To your question about the word "Misir": yes, it is quite common in
usage in Bosnia and is considered a Turkism - there are words like
"misir" for a kind of corn, "misiraca", "misirka" or "mesiraca" that
stands for a kind of pumpkin, "misirbaba" (word of Jewish-Persian
origin) that stands for a beardless man (also implying impotence),
"Misirlija" - Egyptian and "misirlija" - horse trained in an Egyptian
manner (Mameluk)."

Other Bosnian geologists- (Mensur Omerbashich (2007): Bosnian “Pyramids”: Hills shaped by Romans. http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/.
(September 20, 2007)- sees that Romans shaped the northern side to oriented it in east-west for watching and recording the militaries campaign of the enemies (their rights) and me see this was to shape pyramid.

I would not give much credence to Mr. Omerbashich’s theories. I have
read his blog, and exchanged a few mails with him (see here
http://irna.lautre.net/Pyramids-shaped-by-Romans.html (en)). As far as I respect his knowledge as geodesist and geophysicist, he is not a field geologist and seems unable to recognize simple sedimentary features like Liesegang rings that, as Mr. Osmanagic before him, he interprets as a shoe-mould; he is no archaeologist either, and maybe ventures quite far from his field of competence when he constructs his theory with the utmost disdain for the knowledge of the specialists - that he admits never having read. And, lastly, judging by the subject and the tone of his last posts, and of the posts on his other blog
(http://bosniafordummies.blogspot.com/ (en)), he is much more interested in his nationalist agenda than in science in this affair...

We reported human bones in a grave on the plateau with black material in a vessel. I think it represent liquid food during historical times, because I ask if this feature is known during the prehistoric time, museum specialists informed me: No. this feature appeared in definite time in Egypt. The people provided food to the died person. I can send you the reference if you interesting.

What much intrigues me is the fact that this discovery of yours, which seems quite interesting, was never even *mentioned* by any of the Foundation team. Was any archaeologist present when you found these bones? or sent later to study them? I find quite troubling the fact that Mr. Osmanagic never mentioned this, when he is so prone to claim fantastic discoveries on his website. Do you have any picture of the place?
And I would have the same question about the artifacts you mention. I’m not surprised at all that you found various neolithic tools, given the fact that man has been present in this region for at least 7000 years, not to find one artifact would have been really strange :-). But as far as I know these artifacts have never been shown by the Foundation on their website (when they have shown a lot of "pseudo-artifacts"...). This kind of mysteries may give credence to the opinion of some "anti-pyramid" bloggers in Bosnia, who think that Mr. Osmanagic has hidden the artifacts which do not suit his fantastic chronology. If you have any information about this, I would really appreciate the sharing!

This mail is already much too long!
But I still have a few questions I would ask you, if you accept to answer, not related directly with your report. I hope you will not resent it as rude from me that I ask so much questions, but, having followed this story for almost two years, and having read so much about it, that’s the first time I have the opportunity to discuss it with someone directly involved - and having the necessary scientific background, which is not the case with the voluntaries and "pyramid-believers" you can meet on forums... So, here are my last questions for today :-)
- Have you been able to read the report written by Ms. Nadija Nukic about the drill-holes (not the one translated in English wich is present on the Foundation website, but the one which, according to Ms. Nukic, was never published)?
- I understand you have met, when you were in Visoko, Bosnian geologists and archaologists: did you discuss with them your idea of a man-shaped hill?
- Are you aware that every scientist of the team has left the project, some at the beginning and some later? As far as I know, there is now only one scientist in the team, an English archaeologist named Andrew Lawler, all the others are gone.
- And are you aware that the main members of the team, the ones that drive the project, are not scientists but various "New age" mystics and believers, writers, librarians, mechanical engineers and so on, who regularly publish on the Foundation website their deliriums (pyramids being gigantic oscillators or radiators, ghosts in the tunnels, stone spheres used as energy concentrators and this kind of rubbish)?

I surely will find other questions in a few days :-), but it will suffice for tonight! Sorry again to bother you with such demands, but, after all, you offered to answer my questions - not knowing, maybe, what an inexhaustible asker I can reveal myself :-).

I really hope to hear from you soon,
best regards, Irna

Irna - 2008/01/21

2008/01/22: Dr. Barakat’s third mail

Dear Sir;

I have the pleasure to write you again. Please, find the reply as file for easily reading. Also, find three illustration figures, hopping to get them easily. I will be outside home the following 20 days.

Thanks again for your comments and you are welcome. Be sure that I prize the criticized comments and I show the different opinion in my work. Last year I showed the exchanged letter between Dr. Hawas and Dr. Mark Rose in the presentation, in particular the words that concern me in the latter. Of course, you have this letter. The audiences and the readers must know that the topic is a matter of controversy.

Find also, photo of The Sphinx. It shows some details.

Thank you again for this authorization; in fact, I would like to publish this entire correspondence, if you do not oppose, on my website, as I think it is most important to provide the public with all the available information.

Thank you and as I told you first time, you have the right to publish any thing you want to publish.

I think we can totally agree on the fact that Visocica northern side is actually triangular, and that the eastern one is also roughly
triangular. But, without further evidence, I am doubtful when you say
that this feature "is not related to natural process". I have seen, as
I’m sure you also have, numerous strange natural features; as far as I
have seen, triangular mountain sides are not so rare in this part of
Bosnia, if generally not so perfect.

Here is the normal argument between researchers. It is valid to find differences between researchers in this concern. Some of the them say they are totally natural feature while some others say they are modified by man. Although, I see that the Visocica hill modified by man to be a pyramid, I respect the other views say it is natural. I appreciate the different view in science, because it enhances our knowledge on the topic. In this regard, I refer to definite feature (Fig. 1 from the attached photos). This is a plate of sandstone rock found by the foundation in 2006 the site. I referred to it as a natural micro-fold structure, while Prof. Darew Andretta investigated the curved lines as man made. This is normal between researchers.

Beginning with the five other hills Mr. Osmanagic has proclaimed pyramids on the basis of their more or less triangular sides :-) (by the way, your report says nothing about these other "pyramids": I believe you saw at least Pljesevica; do you think, like Mr. Osmanagic, it is also a pyramid?)

Concerning the other pyramids;
- Pljesevica, the local inhabitants informed me that, there are tunnels leading to rooms inside the hill. Many old persons confirmed this. Accordingly, we made systematic excavation on the two sides of the Pljesevica. There are few marks on man interference represented by small room-like construction in between the two sides. Before I left to Egypt, the work exposed vertical hole in the western side. Until now I do not know their extends and their purposes. So, I deal with the situation with more care.
- Dragon, I made one visit to it, I did not report any interesting feature, except ancient tool marks on the surface of some stones on the hill noticed by Dr. Amer Smailbegovic. This feature may indicate that the site was used as ancient quarry for sandstone blocks? No detailed work was carried out on the site.
- I did not investigate other sites more.

If I do not doubt that some human interventions took place on Visocica at various times in the past (see also below), I think that the point where I have to disagree with you, at least without further evidence, is the *extent* of these interventions: the entire re-shaping of a hill this big, if, of course, not impossible, would have to be very solidly
argumented to convince me, and nothing I read or saw on the Foundation website offers any evidence.

I hope the foundation searches for the stones falling from the hill in the surrounding valleys and shows representative artifacts on the website. I hope they find the stones used by local inhabitants. I hope to involve persons who aware with the historical features. Dr. Andretta suggested work program includes several topics that must be investigated, paleoclimte, the tectonic history of the area, rate of weathering, paleobotany, recent plants, documentations, legends, the travelers writings, prehistory, historical events, geology, hydrology every thinks that has impact on the hills. He found evidence of a relatively recent tectonic movement(s), changed the way of the river near the site.

The foundation also has different view than me. So, they do not consider my work worth of interest.

What is more, if these slabs are unambiguously artificial, it should be easy to demonstrate, and Mr. Osmanagic will soon be able to show some evidence, like geological discordances, tool marks, the quarry where the slabs come from and so on.

What I observed are artificial slabs on the northern and eastern sides of the hill (See Fig. 2, in the attachment). They are different from that you show on the website. What also recognized by Prof. Andretta seems like slabs intercalated with country rock of the hill.

I really think that the word pyramid is used here
exclusively in a descriptive meaning, as one could use the word "tower"
or "wall" to describe a natural rock shelf for instance, and that it
absolutely cannot be used as an evidence of anything, and surely not as
evidence of a reference to a man-made pyramid.

I agree with you that they did not mentioned man made pyramid. But the statement “city pyramid” is interesting even it is of descriptive meaning. I will refer to the pages that talking about man work affected the shape of the hill and write to you for more details. These pages translated to me in Visoko by many different persons.

Before I forget to mention it, a Bosnian friend answered me that about the word "misir" (not "miser") that you say is used in Visoko to refer to the site: "To your question about the word "Misir": yes, it is quite common in usage in Bosnia and is considered a Turkism - there are words like "misir" for a kind of corn, "misiraca", "misirka" or "mesiraca" that stands for a kind of pumpkin, "misirbaba" (word of Jewish-Persian
origin) that stands for a beardless man (also implying impotence),
"Misirlija" - Egyptian and "misirlija" - horse trained in an Egyptian
manner (Mameluk)."

Ok. I will consider all these meaning in the paper and acknowledge your contribution in this regard. I will also refer to the documents papers for more understanding.

I would not give much credence to Mr. Omerbashich’s theories. I have read his blog, and exchanged a few mails with him (see here
http://irna.lautre.net/Pyramids-shaped-by-Romans.html). As far as I
respect his knowledge as geodesist and geophysicist, he is not a field
geologist and seems unable to recognize simple sedimentary features like Liesegang rings that, as Mr. Osmanagic before him, he interprets as a shoe-mould; he is no archaeologist either, and maybe ventures quite far from his field of competence when he constructs his theory with the
utmost disdain for the knowledge of the specialists - that he admits
never having read. And, lastly, judging by the subject and the tone of
his last posts, and of the posts on his other blog (http://bosniafordummies.blogspot.com/), he is much more interested in
his nationalist agenda than in science in this affair...

I agree with you. I refer to Mr. Omerbashich’s theories, to show that there are different interpretations to the feature and the different views are worthy of consideration.

What much intrigues me is the fact that this discovery of yours, which seems quite interesting, was never even *mentioned* by any of the Foundation team. Was any archaeologist present when you found these bones? or sent later to study them? I find quite troubling the fact that Mr. Osmanagic never mentioned this, when he is so prone to claim
fantastic discoveries on his website. Do you have any picture of the place?

Yeas, there were three archaeologists involved in the project at that time; Miss Silvana Cobanov (Bosnian) and Miss Nancy Gallou (Grecian), while Miss Lamia El Hadidy (Egyptian) jointed the team for nearly 10 days. I try to explain the situation in detail.

The material was found behind Visocica hill, as you try to access the site from the valley, opposite to the foundation wood room. The work in this site was before me, but I watch the work going on during my stay in Visoko in May-June 2006. The work exposed a geometric space excavated in the sandstone rock (see sketch to imagine the description, Fig. 3, vertical view). It was hidden by sands and above the sand the mud layer. Inside it you see different levels of the original excavations. We found stones standing like columns in the lower wide level, and one polished stones of cylinder shape (about 30 cm long and nearly 15 cm diameter). The archaeological team reported fragment of bones on the wide lower level of the site. One day, the group showed me fragments of black material within the removed sediments of the site. It is very similar to the fragments that we found in the Egyptian Deserts.

What we found in the Egyptian Deserts? During our examinations the ancient Jars (pottery) or food vessels, we see the remains of the liquid food or drinks in the form of solidified black material similar in appearance to coal. Definitely, under the foot of a hill in the Fayium Desert,, and along the ancient desert track connecting the Egyptian oases. There was a trade line between these oases and the Mediterranean Countries. Transportation of wine from the oases abroad was active during the ancient times. There is a store of Jars (wide Pottery Vessels) under the foot of the hill. One charge was left by the ancient people in the site (we don’t know why). Nowadays, you meet the bracken jars. The liquids hosted at these jars are now like coal exactly similar in appearance to coal. Why we say it was liquid? Because, it takes the shape of the hosted vessels.

Back again to the site, we watched a black streak in the sand layer covering the site. I followed the fine streaks to find it comes from the eastern side of the site. My observation was nearly right, because the excavation showed in this side a human burial (bones). If I right (in my own observation) it is oriented N.S. But, what I am sure there is a vessel of pottery on the extreme southern point of this side adjoins the body (or the bones) and contains the main mass of the black material. I also noticed the occurrence of friable red fragments of hematite with the bones. I know that prehistoric man prized hematite, and preserved hematite fragments in graves with the died persons, for its color which similar to the blood (according to some investigations) but I do know if the same in later times or not. Please, if you have definite idea concerning the topic, I will be grateful if you tell me.

My personal interpretation is one of:
- The died person(s) have their food with them?
- The alive peoples (probably from the family of the died person(s)) visited the site from time to time to provide them liquid food.
- The black material may represent preserved organs of the died person(s).

Why I think that the material seems to represent liquid food? This is because, the black streaks are observed through the sand deposits covering the lower level part, so you may expect that it flowed from the original point through the sands. Otherwise, the black streaks in the sands may represent tiny grains eroded away from the main material and dispersed in the whole site by the action of rains. I would like to tell you that this is different from the feature observed in natural sites as black streaks resulted from transferring the plants roots to charcoal naturally. This is because, in this feature, you can observe that the black streaks in the sands joint the black material, which is preserved in the vessel.

I do not consider my self right in these conclusions, but this is what I can say in this concern, if any one asks my opinion. Amway, no one supported this view and the archaeologists at that time do not deal with situation as worthy of interest. They were responsible on the artifact and me personally are extremely sensitive toward such fine archaeological material, because I am not archaeologist. In fact, this feature is interesting to me. I tried to understand the situation by myself. I visited the Museum many times asking about the habits that were and are still followed towards the died peoples, but nothing I gained.

Unfortunately, I do not have photos for this feature, because, I left it to the archaeologists, who still excavate while I left Visoko to Egypt.

They informed me that the excavation stopped for the problem between the foundation and the owner of the land and every thing still in the ground.

Have you been able to read the report written by Ms. Nadija Nukic about the drill-holes (not the one translated in English which is present on the Foundation website, but the one which, according to Ms. Nukic, was never published)? I understand you have met, when you were in Visoko, Bosnian geologists and archeologists: did you discuss with them your idea of a man-shaped hill?
- Are you aware that every scientist of the team has left the project,
some at the beginning and some later? As far as I know, there is now
only one scientist in the team, an English archaeologist named Andrew
Lawler, all the others are gone.

The first geologist I met in Visoko was Ms. Nadija Nukic. She is very cleaver geologist and she aware with the geology of the site and she provided many help to the project with here husbanded. I discussed with here all my idea about the site. I am very upset because, I did not meet her the last short trip to Visoko. I tried to find her phone, but there is no way. During may stay I met many geologists from different parts of the world. We exchanged ideas about the site.

And are you aware that the main members of the team, the ones that drive the project, are not scientists but various "New age" mystics and believers, writers, librarians, mechanical engineers and so on, who regularly publish on the Foundation website their deliriums (pyramids being gigantic oscillators or radiators, ghosts in the tunnels, stone spheres used as energy concentrators and this kind of rubbish)?


I am very sad because, there are no scientific team now, except Mr. Andrew Lawler. I contacted some of the researchers that in the project from the beginning and I met some of them last trip. I keep a good feeling for them. Prof. Darew Andretta is very cleaver and highly cultured person. He provided valuable ideas to the team and me.

Please, try to get his email from Ms. Nadija Nukic and kindly send me to contact him. In last week of 2006 visit, I was ill and I decided to return home without any arrangement. So, I did not have the emails of many persons, including him.

I surely will find other questions in a few days:-), but it will
suffice for tonight! Sorry again to bother you with such demands, but,
after all, you offered to answer my questions-not knowing, maybe, what
an inexhaustible asker I can reveal myself :-). I really hope to hear from you soon

You are welcome. I am very happy to write you and I hope that my answer introduce something. I am also happy for the comments that you provided in this concern and I will quote them in my writings.

Best regards and best wishes
Aly

Dr. Barakat - 2008/01/22
Reply to Irna 2 - 2008/01/22

The attached files:

Fig 01 - 2008/01/22
Fig 02 - 2008/01/22
Fig 03 - 2008/01/22
Sphinx - 2008/01/22

To be continued

As soon as Dr. Barakat comes back from his trip, and given he still agrees to this open discussion, I’ll publish the mails to follow.


Forum
Comment on this article


bullet pointSite map bullet pointContact bullet pointEditors area bullet point

RSS Valid XHTML 1.0 Strict

2006-2017 © Le site d’Irna - All rights reserved
Site created with SPIP
with the template ESCAL-V3
Version: 3.87.47
amélioré par Pigédius
Host: L'Autre Net